2004/09/15
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IRC [01:42] <zoro2> hello
IRC [02:25] <archiware> good morning
IRC [02:25] <archiware> or good whatever
IRC [02:39] <zoro2> well it's morning for me
IRC [02:39] <zoro2> so thanks
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IRC [03:45] <zoro2_> hello back
IRC [04:07] <archiware> yes, it's a busy morgen!
IRC [04:15] <archiware> zoro2_: do you know about or already use skype telephony?
IRC [04:19] <zoro2_> skype is voip, right?
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IRC [04:29] <archiware> i think so. it is the easiest internet telephony app i found out ther
IRC [04:29] <archiware> and it works very nice on win, linux and macox
IRC [04:34] <zoro2_> hmmm
IRC [04:34] <zoro2_> I've never tested it
IRC [04:34] <archiware> www.skype.com
IRC [04:34] <archiware> do try.
IRC [04:34] <zoro2_> hard to test such things on gprs, don't you think? :)
IRC [04:35] <archiware> i'm using it on my pc at work
IRC [04:35] <archiware> have dsl connection
IRC [04:35] <archiware> actually, last week i was in japan and talked to my girlfriend for hours w/o cost
IRC [04:36] <archiware> this was a major a-ha effect for me
IRC [04:36] <archiware> compare this to about 10$ i had to pay for 5 minutes call Japan-Germay!
IRC [04:37] <zoro2_> yes
IRC [04:37] <zoro2_> when my girlfriend will finally have internet access (she doesn't exactly live in a large city)
IRC [04:37] <zoro2_> I will probably use it very often
IRC [04:38] <zoro2_> as I have a BT headset that works really fine with my laptop
IRC [04:38] <archiware> we find it extremely useful here in the company
IRC [04:38] <archiware> many of our collegues work from home
IRC [04:39] <archiware> we just setup a conference call and hold it for hours effectively being able to communicate seamless
IRC [04:39] <archiware> with this we now have 1-2 people in the company with the rest working from home
IRC [04:39] <archiware> it is just a great thing!
IRC [04:45] <zoro2_> hmmm
IRC [04:45] <zoro2_> that would be VERY interesting
IRC [04:45] <archiware> please try it. you will love it.
IRC [04:47] <archiware> i am there as "zoranvasiljevic" so when you get it installed we can talk for free
IRC [04:51] <zoro2_> heh
IRC [04:51] <zoro2_> ok
IRC [04:54] <zoro2_> when I'm on a landline
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AIM [07:38] <OnlineHost> You have been removed from the room for scrolling.
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IRC [11:16] <AndyPiskorski> Anyone here have a firm understanding of Tcl_Obj reference counting?
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IRC [11:56] <Dossy> Andy: Pretty firm, why?
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IRC [13:06] <jhavard> http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/image/0409/ivan_iss_big.jpg
IRC [13:33] <AndyPiskorski> You stil here Dossy? My question is, if I call Tcl_NewStringObj, use it locally in my function, and then I'm done with it, I NEVER need to call Tcl_IncrRefCount or Tcl_DecrRefCount at all, right?
IRC [13:34] <AndyPiskorski> Reason I ask, is the Tcl docs are very good EXCEPT they never talk about the scope of Tcl_Obj's!
IRC [13:34] <Dossy> andy: Depends on what "use it locally" means.
IRC [13:34] <AndyPiskorski> The docs imply that if you only use a Tcl_Obj locally, you never need to worry about the Tcl garbage collector deleting it out from under you while you're still in that same C function, but they never actually SAY.
IRC [13:35] <Dossy> If you never interact with a Tcl interp, then why use a Tcl_Obj?
IRC [13:35] <AndyPiskorski> By locally, I mean in the same C function. Same block with that C function, even.
IRC [13:35] <AndyPiskorski> [within that C function, I meant]
IRC [13:36] <AndyPiskorski> Some C functions take Tcl_Objs as arguments.
IRC [13:36] <AndyPiskorski> (And there are other reasons, too.)
IRC [13:38] <AndyPiskorski> (By other reasons, I mean grep for Tcl_NewStringObj in the AOLserver code. You will find some uses similar to what I'm talking about.)
IRC [13:38] <Dossy> Can you point to a specific instance?
IRC [13:39] <AndyPiskorski> aolserver/nsd/tclvar.c line 577 is one.
IRC [13:39] <Dossy> If you aren't going to hold onto the Tcl_Obj past the end of the function where it was created, then you don't need to do anything with the refcounts - MOST of the time.
IRC [13:39] <AndyPiskorski> "most"??
IRC [13:40] <Dossy> Ah, see, when TclListObjAppendElement() adds a Tcl_Obj, it incr's the refcount.
IRC [13:40] <AndyPiskorski> Ah, you mean if the code I call itself mucks with the refcount in some obnoxious or incorrect way?
IRC [13:41] <Dossy> So, unless you want to force Tcl to make a copy of your obj, no, don't incr the refcount as you are (essentially) holding a weak reference from C.
IRC [13:41] <Dossy> Ugh. 40KB/sec is slow. Sigh.
IRC [13:43] <AndyPiskorski> Ok, thanks. (So THAT'S not my problem. [sigh])
IRC [13:45] <Dossy> Nope.
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IRC [14:18] <jcollins> hey dossy could the random crashing be stacksize related?
IRC [14:19] <jcollins> his stacksize is not super low but ...
IRC [14:23] <Dossy> jcollins: I didn't look at that - let me see.
IRC [14:23] <Dossy> 256K should be OK, but yeah - possibly.
IRC [14:23] <Dossy> Although he's talking about the server getting "slower and slower" --
IRC [14:23] <Dossy> that's not a stacksize issue.
IRC [14:24] <Dossy> i worry bout maxthreads=maxconns=20
IRC [14:24] <Dossy> maxthreads=20, maxconns=100 or more ... should be
IRC [14:25] <jcollins> Oh, thought the crashing was still an issue
IRC [14:25] <jcollins> still reading emails, guess i should finish first :)
IRC [14:41] <jcollins> wish oracle would include #define OCI_MAJOR_VERSION 10 someplace
IRC [14:41] <Dossy> heh
IRC [14:41] <Dossy> bah
IRC [14:41] <Dossy> or an OCIGetVersion() call.
IRC [14:41] <jcollins> well i need this for a makefile
IRC [14:41] <Dossy> Which, there probably is ...
IRC [14:41] <Dossy> Oh - yuck.
IRC [14:42] <jcollins> or some way to figure out the libs to compile against
IRC [14:42] <Dossy> do they put version in the libs in SONAME?
IRC [14:42] <jcollins> nsoracle fails on 10g because it doesn't link correctly
IRC [14:42] <Dossy> well apparently sameer says he's using nsoracle 2.7 with oracle 10g
IRC [14:42] <Dossy> how'd that happen if it doesn't link correctly? you think he hacked it to work?
IRC [14:43] <jcollins> yeah, it's a simple fix
IRC [14:43] <jcollins> and so far it's worked fine for me
IRC [14:43] <Dossy> ah, ok
IRC [14:43] <Dossy> i should set up a dev instance of oracle 10g -- sigh, too many things to do.
IRC [14:43] <Dossy> on the upside, ingres r3 is working beautifully for me :)
IRC [14:44] <AndyPiskorski> Dossy, why are you so keen on using Ingres?
IRC [14:44] <jcollins> oh and i've looked for OCIGetVersion() it returns the version of the server you're connected to and not the client libs version
IRC [14:45] <Dossy> andy: real enterprise tools available for it.
IRC [14:45] <Dossy> jcollins: ah, yes...
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IRC [15:34] <jhavard> dossy: have you attempted a quel query using nsingres?
IRC [15:35] <jhavard> just a simple RETRIEVE ( tablename.all )
IRC [15:40] <jhavard> Hrm, I think I'll register xmlnowhere.com
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IRC [15:54] <frodoroot> hell
IRC [15:54] <frodoroot> o
IRC [15:55] <jhavard> Eh, with this hurricane heading in, it's been just "Hell"
IRC [15:56] <martinh> are you in the area?
IRC [15:57] <jhavard> A good ways north
IRC [15:57] <martinh> so lotsa good rain for you?
IRC [15:57] <jhavard> it's just we have quite a few customers in the strike area, so we're having to help them with disaster preperations
IRC [15:57] <martinh> and lots of tourists. . .
IRC [15:57] <martinh> oooh. that's a bitch too.
IRC [15:57] <jhavard> and clogged highways and interstates from the evacuees.
IRC [15:58] <jhavard> in addition to refugees from the two recent florida hurricanes.
IRC [15:59] <jhavard> Traffic was backed up to a near stand-still for about 40 miles on one particular highway.
IRC [16:00] <martinh> gah.
IRC [16:00] <frodoroot> where in FL is this jhavard ?
IRC [16:00] <jhavard> mississippi
IRC [16:00] <frodoroot> that's not in FL
IRC [16:00] <jhavard> correct
IRC [16:01] <jhavard> ivan is hitting anywhere between louisianna and florida.
IRC [16:01] <frodoroot> I'm going to gainseville in a few days unless it blew away
IRC [16:01] <jhavard> mississippi is in the middle
IRC [16:02] <jhavard> http://www.wunderground.com/tropical/tracking/at200409_strike.html
IRC [16:13] <Dossy> jhavard: let me try
IRC [16:14] <Dossy> no joy - won't do QUEL
IRC [16:16] <jhavard> That makes me sad.
IRC [16:23] <Dossy> you'll live :)
IRC [16:23] <Dossy> i can see what it'd take to support QUEL queries
IRC [16:27] <jhavard> plugging in a different library?
IRC [16:48] <Dossy> or a config parameter
IRC [16:48] <Dossy> on the pool
IRC [16:48] <jhavard> which would have been my first choice.
IRC [16:49] <jhavard> but that's too simple and elegant, so I figured it had to be implemented in a different library.
IRC [16:54] <Dossy> ah, QUEL doesn't seem to let you do run-time dynamic QUEL
IRC [16:54] <jhavard> eh?
IRC [16:54] <Dossy> it's all baked into the executable or a "form"
IRC [16:54] * jhavard runs quel and wonders
IRC [16:54] <jhavard> I mean define "dynamic"
IRC [16:56] <Dossy> ah,true
IRC [16:56] <Dossy> let me look at quel source :)
IRC [16:58] <jhavard> I'm almost tempted to see if it would be possible to bolt quel onto postgresql
IRC [16:59] <AndyPiskorski> Hey Dossy, guess what? I added Tcl_IncrRefCount and Tcl_DecrRefCount around use of all my local Tcl_Obj's, and it seems to be fixing my infinite memory growth problem in AOLsever 4.0.7. !!!
IRC [17:00] <AndyPiskorski> Perhaps it's not having a refcount of 0 that invokes Tcl's garbage collector, but the action of the refcount DROPPING to 0...
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IRC [17:02] <AndyPiskorski> Interestingly, I earlier tried JUST using Tcl_DecrRefCount (because the Tcl docs imply that it's ok to have a negative ref count), but that gave me segfaults.
IRC [17:10] <Dossy> holy jesus. ingres source is scary.
IRC [17:10] <Dossy> andy: beats me
IRC [17:11] <Dossy> andy: as I said, if the Tcl_Obj gets exposed back to Tcl but you want to hold onto it in C, you need a refcount
IRC [17:11] <Dossy> If you don't ever hand the obj back to tcl, then you need to free the Tcl_Obj yourself. otherwise, it will leak.
IRC [17:11] <Dossy> jhavard: there is little to no chance I'll be implementing QUEL support.
IRC [17:12] <Dossy> and "retrieve (tablename.qualifier)" is not more intuitive to me than "select columns from tablename where conditions"
IRC [17:13] <AndyPiskorski> Not according to the Tcl C docs, I think. Looks like the docs are wrong - or at least my interpretation of them was. That one bit is definitely very vague.
IRC [17:15] <Dossy> The macro Tcl_DecrRefCount
IRC [17:15] <Dossy> decrements the count when a reference is no longer needed and, if the
IRC [17:15] <Dossy> object's reference count drops to zero, frees its storage.
IRC [17:15] <Dossy> If your C code has a pointer to the Tcl_Obj, and you pass it as an arg to another C function, then refcount should = 2.
IRC [17:15] <Dossy> you have one ref, and the other function has a ref.
IRC [17:15] <Dossy> or, something like that
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IRC [17:40] <jhavard> dossy: what's so scary about the ingres source? The weird structure?
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IRC [18:04] <Dossy> jhavard: look in src/front/tm/qr/qrretsel.c - can you read that?
IRC [18:05] <Dossy> I've read really ugly C source for the last 15 years or so -- this is some of the more heinous that I've had to deal with.
IRC [18:16] <jhavard> first off, it could use a healthy run of indent
IRC [18:19] <jhavard> It's still a bunch of ugly c, though.
IRC [18:28] <Dossy> the fact that the 'tm' binary handles either SQL or QUEL (cmdline switch -qSQL or -qQUEL) -- shudder.
IRC [18:31] <Dossy> makes baby jebus cry.
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IRC [18:58] <jhavard> Not the baby jebus.
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IRC [19:49] <Dossy> Has google officially given up on Orkut/
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