2005/02/08
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IRC [11:31] <natester> Dossy: the mailing list is sure fun to read now
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IRC [11:55] <Dossy> natester: :-)
IRC [11:55] <natester> lol
IRC [11:55] <Dossy> Well, it sure is noisy now.
IRC [11:55] <natester> yeah
IRC [11:55] <natester> you just asked for someone to help with web design and boom
IRC [11:55] <natester> or was that the thing that caused it all?
IRC [11:55] <Dossy> yeah, that was pretty much it
IRC [11:56] * Dossy shrugs.
IRC [11:56] <Dossy> brb.
IRC [11:56] <natester> :)
IRC [12:10] <rubick> Dossy, since I'm on sourceforge, does that mean I have commit access to nsopenssl?
IRC [12:13] <rubick> Would you mind applying that nsopenssl patch? I promise to investigate committing myself next time :)
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IRC [13:35] <jhavard> *yawn*
IRC [13:35] <jhavard> So, what'd I miss?
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IRC [13:47] <Dossy> woo.
IRC [13:47] <Dossy> haha, he even got reverse DNS? now that's a nice vserver :)
IRC [13:47] <Dossy> hey jhavard.
IRC [13:47] <Dossy> not much :)
IRC [13:47] <jhavard> man, that was one crazy weekend on the list.
IRC [13:48] <Dossy> yeah, sometimes you have to stir the pot.
IRC [13:48] <Dossy> it's already feb 2005 and the community was too quiet ...
IRC [13:48] <jhavard> huzzah.
IRC [13:49] <jhavard> So, you beat the hornets nest with a baseball bat, eh?
IRC [13:50] <Dossy> I guess so. :)
IRC [13:51] <jhavard> vlad really got worked up.
IRC [13:51] <jhavard> We're actually looking at using his ossmon stuff internally.
IRC [13:52] <Dossy> Yay, cool.
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IRC [14:04] <siddfinch> where are all these multi-protocol patches? :)
IRC [14:05] <jhavard> They're in the googlemonster.
IRC [14:06] <jhavard> ftp://ftp.crystalballinc.com/pub/vlad/aolserver-4.1-patch.tar.gz
IRC [14:06] <jhavard> there's one.
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IRC [14:25] <siddfinch> My theory is that people want web servers to grow until they become exchange/iis/webmail all in one package, then complain they are bloated :)
IRC [14:29] <holycow> siddfinch, luckily with linux you can already give them that instantly
IRC [14:30] <holycow> and still retain integrity and non 'bloaty' kinda feeling :)
IRC [14:30] <holycow> i agree with you though
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IRC [14:34] <siddfinch> Linux is an operating system, one would expect to be able to get the functionality. But not in one all encompassing application!
IRC [14:47] <jhavard> I'm still out on the whole non-http-servers-are-first-class-citizens thing.
IRC [14:48] <jhavard> While it would be nice implement a mud or smtp server under aolserver in pure tcl, I don't want the core feature, serving web pages, to be diminished in any way.
IRC [14:49] <siddfinch> I have been mucking around with tcllib's smtpd and modifying it to use aolserver calls
IRC [14:49] <jhavard> ooh, time for lunch.
IRC [14:49] <siddfinch> but it will always be an ugly hack and should never be ``core''
IRC [14:51] <Dossy> sidd: heh :)
IRC [14:51] <Dossy> sidd: Vlad's done some hackery of AOLserver to make it speak SMTP.
IRC [14:52] <siddfinch> yea, I have seen it. My biggest concern is controlling the processes. Email can quickly over take a system ..
IRC [14:52] <siddfinch> From what I seen of his stuff, one qmail server could render the system dos'd for days
IRC [14:53] <Dossy> I bet the folks pushing for multi-protocol AOLserver are also Emacs users. :-P
IRC [14:53] <Dossy> sidd: Lets not go there.
IRC [14:54] <siddfinch> So, we goto the bar? :->
IRC [14:55] <siddfinch> but if somebody is going something off the radar and needs a new core function to complete it (say, limiting the number of socket connections) then that feature should be considered (at least, that is my thinking)
IRC [14:57] <Dossy> sidd: A much better idea, yeah. Except for the hangovers, of course.
IRC [14:57] <siddfinch> If you stay drunk, no worries!
IRC [14:57] <martinh> whoa. . .we're drinking? cool!
IRC [14:57] <siddfinch> martinh: not you, your the driver today
IRC [14:57] <Dossy> martinh: I'll have to find an excuse to go to OH, heh.
IRC [14:58] <martinh> [to siddfinch]: like hell i am.
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IRC [15:57] <jhavard> sidd: not that I'm saying I agree with djb on anything, but qmail isn't the totally evil pos it was five years ago.
IRC [16:06] <Dossy> jhavard: It's had like what, one code change in 5 years? Qmail was never evil.
IRC [16:07] <Dossy> dimartin: set yourself up w/ NickServ, while you're at it :)
IRC [16:16] <siddfinch> I'm not saying qmail is evil ( only webserver is use ) but any smtp process need to account for the fact that qmail can easily open 200 connections against it (as can postfix and sendmail, but not with the efficiency)
IRC [16:18] <Dossy> to be honest there's zero reason why you couldn't use aolserver as a MTA
IRC [16:18] <Dossy> I mean now, with zero core change, using ns_socklistencallback and friends.
IRC [16:19] <jhavard> yeah, that's what I was thinking.
IRC [16:19] <siddfinch> Dossy, exactly but the parts I am looking at is controlling it so you don't crash the server when it gets busy
IRC [16:19] <Dossy> What's the big deal with AOLserver handling 1000+ concurrent connections? Even on modest x86 hardware, it can handle 1500+ conns.
IRC [16:19] <Dossy> sidd: just refuse to accept new conns when you get busy. SMTP protocol was designed to failover to backup MX'es as well as queue for redelivery.
IRC [16:19] <siddfinch> then start having internal spam checking, virus processing, etc?
IRC [16:20] <jhavard> actually, vlad has an smtp server for aolserver, iirc.
IRC [16:20] <siddfinch> yes, that has to be written into it and every thing I have looked at for AOLserver SMTP handling doesn't handlie it.
IRC [16:20] <Dossy> well spam checking and virus scanning etc. are all overhead, sure.
IRC [16:20] <Dossy> jhavard: right.
IRC [16:20] <Dossy> sidd: not yet necessary? heh
IRC [16:21] <siddfinch> yes he does and using it I crashed a nice size x86 box in 15 minutes ... it doesn't have any connection controls
IRC [16:21] <jhavard> And I'm assuming that's why it's not in core.
IRC [16:21] <Dossy> I just hope his explanation isn't "insufficent support in the AOLserver core."
IRC [16:22] <siddfinch> looking at the code, it wasn't thought ..
IRC [16:22] <Dossy> jhavard: no, it's because I'm a CONTROL FREAK and I refuse to allow this unclean pagan source code into the Holy Tree.
IRC [16:22] <Dossy> </sarcasm>
IRC [16:22] <jhavard> Oh, my bad.
IRC [16:22] <jhavard> fark you dossy.
IRC [16:22] <Dossy> :P
IRC [16:23] <siddfinch> So I am redoing tcllib's smtpd a bit to use aolserver calls and putting in a connection control area (plus hacking in a rbl checker)
IRC [16:23] <Dossy> yay
IRC [16:24] <Dossy> why not just use qmail? heh
IRC [16:24] <siddfinch> because if I need to get the mail INTO AOLserver it is easier then parsing emails in the filesystem :)
IRC [16:25] <Dossy> nahh.
IRC [16:25] <Dossy> just write a new qmail-local
IRC [16:25] <Dossy> so when qmail goes to deliver the mail locally, instead of qmail's qmail-local spooling it to disk ...
IRC [16:25] <siddfinch> Okay, I'm doing it so OpenACS can get rid of the stupid farking acs-mail-* stuff they have now.
IRC [16:26] <Dossy> your custom qmail-local pushes it over a socket into AOLserver
IRC [16:26] <Dossy> siddfinch: yeah, the acs-mail-* stuff is pretty goofy, heh. nod
IRC [16:26] <Dossy> and you don't want to say "ok, set up qmail if you want to use openacs" -- heh.
IRC [16:26] <Dossy> still, openacs processes incoming mail only to do bounce processing for outgoing mail, no/
IRC [16:27] <siddfinch> Bah, then I have to accept mail and bounce it (if it comes in qmail-local). If the server process is there I can refuse during smtp
IRC [16:27] <Dossy> sidd: true.
IRC [16:27] <siddfinch> Nope, they have notifications to reply to forum messages,
IRC [16:27] <Dossy> sidd: then implement a custom qmail-queue
IRC [16:27] <Dossy> so you can bounce during the SMTP transaction
IRC [16:27] <siddfinch> and people are looking at adding ANOTHER way to handle incoming mail to allow forums to act as email addresses.
IRC [16:28] <Dossy> that's the beauty of qmail. its entire process is modular
IRC [16:28] <Dossy> forum-threadid@host.dom
IRC [16:28] <Dossy> ?
IRC [16:28] <siddfinch> I know, I have all kinds of hacks in my setups, but OpenACS needs a mini-smtp server
IRC [16:28] <Dossy> yea, a mail-to-forum gateway is keen.
IRC [16:28] <siddfinch> Dossy, how do you start a new forum thread them?
IRC [16:28] <Dossy> for a mini-smtp server, just using ns_socklistencallback is probably overkill.
IRC [16:28] <Dossy> siddfinch: forumname@host
IRC [16:29] <siddfinch> OpenACS doesn't have a way to handle something like that ...
IRC [16:29] <Dossy> i mean, how many incoming messages per second does even the busiest openacs site see?
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IRC [16:29] <siddfinch> Umm, I have one that gets about 1 every 5 seconds ... just handling bounces
IRC [16:29] <Dossy> 100/minute? 10/sec?
IRC [16:30] <Dossy> you receive 1 bounce every 5 secs? isn't bounce processing something which oscillates to 0 if done right?
IRC [16:30] <Dossy> assuming that the number of outgoing messages that generate a bounce exceeds the number of new user registrations?
IRC [16:30] <siddfinch> now when you get about 1000 new people a week
IRC [16:31] <siddfinch> right now there is about 25k in users
IRC [16:31] <jhavard> That's still not that many.
IRC [16:31] <Dossy> 1000 new users a week? still, even if ALL of them give bogus email addresses, that's only 1000 bounces :)
IRC [16:31] <siddfinch> it doesn't remove them after one bounce ...
IRC [16:31] <Dossy> and, if you do email address validation at user registration...
IRC [16:31] <siddfinch> it does after having 10 straight bounces of the course of 4 days
IRC [16:31] <Dossy> it doesn't? hard bounce vs. soft bounce?
IRC [16:32] <siddfinch> basically exactly what ezmlm does.
IRC [16:32] <Dossy> a 5xx should be treated as hard bounce, 4xx as soft. i can understand not removing after the first soft bounce, but definitely remove after a hard bounce.
IRC [16:32] <Dossy> then give them a way to (via web interface) come in and un-bounce their account. just like yahoo! groups.
IRC [16:32] <siddfinch> it has that ...
IRC [16:32] <siddfinch> basically it is ezmlm bounce policy
IRC [16:33] <jhavard> dossy: You remembered the exclamation point but forgot to capitalize
IRC [16:33] <siddfinch> or at least, that is what they asked me to right.
IRC [16:33] <Dossy> it tolerates a threshold of soft bounces until it stops sending mail to the addr. hard bounces shut it down sooner, IIRC.
IRC [16:33] <tekbasse> what about when an infected computer sends many emails per sec with bad return addresses (to an openacs website)
IRC [16:33] <Dossy> jhavard: yeah, would "yahoo1" been better? :)
IRC [16:33] <siddfinch> ezmlm doesn't look at the smtp return codes, it only handles soft bounces ...
IRC [16:34] <siddfinch> yAhoo2
IRC [16:34] <siddfinch> is better :)
IRC [16:34] <Dossy> tekbasse: if you're running a serious site, i wouldn't use the mini-smtpd in aolserver.
IRC [16:34] <tekbasse> ok
IRC [16:35] <Dossy> is it worth implementing a commercial-grade MTA in AOLserver? god, I dunno.
IRC [16:35] <siddfinch> well the smart thing to do would be run a mail server, process it and send messages to the mini-smtpd server
IRC [16:35] <Dossy> it could be fun, but ... seems silly when there are plenty already available that will co-habitate with aolserver nicely.
IRC [16:35] <jhavard> Or use an smtp server that has nice hooks, say, into the queue stuff.
IRC [16:35] <Dossy> siddfinch: sure. absolutely.
IRC [16:36] <Dossy> "real" SMTP server is the MX. it's configured to route mail for certain addresses through to your openacs smtpd
IRC [16:36] <siddfinch> yep ..
IRC [16:36] <siddfinch> that is my thinking
IRC [16:36] <Dossy> you then control concurrency level on the "real" SMTP server that you control, etc.
IRC [16:36] <Dossy> and so on, and so fort.
IRC [16:36] <Dossy> er, forth.
IRC [16:36] <siddfinch> it is a bit of a hack, but would work well for OpenACS.
IRC [16:36] <Dossy> qmail makes this easy with the "smtproutes" control file.
IRC [16:37] <Dossy> It's not a hack at all ...
IRC [16:37] <siddfinch> If I was going for a non-OpenACS site I would just write a mda that, as you said, talk to AOLserver
IRC [16:37] <Dossy> it's a well established practice in large mail handling setups (universities, etc.) where they handle mail for 30K+ users, etc.
IRC [16:37] <Dossy> where they partition mailboxes across N machines. users 1-1000 deliver to machine 1, etc.
IRC [16:38] <Dossy> but there's only one public MX to the world
IRC [16:38] <Dossy> and you do mail routing within your organization as appropriate.
IRC [16:39] <siddfinch> the MDA would be a better approach though, throw in some bits to check for valid rcpt and to deliver the message to AOLserver
IRC [16:40] <Dossy> maybe.
IRC [16:41] <siddfinch> but blah, you are talking about adding exchange to iis ... eck!
IRC [16:42] <Dossy> So, are the man-pages-as-HTML acceptable - I know they're not pretty, but they at least render :)
IRC [16:42] <siddfinch> works for me ...
IRC [16:43] <Dossy> I guess I should create some pretty indexes to the manpages, too ...
IRC [16:48] <siddfinch> include pictures of nude sheep, that should help bring interest!
IRC [16:48] <Dossy> Scots?
IRC [16:50] <Dossy> http://search.cpan.org/src/MSCHILLI/AOLserver-CtrlPort-0.02
IRC [16:51] <Dossy> fear.
IRC [16:51] <Dossy> AOLserver::CtrlPort module for Perl. heh.
IRC [16:51] <siddfinch> ?
IRC [16:51] <jhavard> control tcl with perl!
IRC [16:51] <siddfinch> Yes!
IRC [16:51] <siddfinch> Now AOLserver can be a real player ... it has a perl module!
IRC [16:51] * Dossy chuckles
IRC [16:52] <jhavard> When somebody says, "Perl" I typically run away.
IRC [16:52] * siddfinch runs screaming ...
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IRC [16:53] <jhavard> see, that's how bad it is.
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IRC [17:38] <jhavard> another, "Can't the community do X?" to the list.
IRC [17:39] <jhavard> which is pretty much the aolserver community.
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IRC [19:20] <siddfinch> Okay, I just offered to put a box for the AOLserver community (basically doing everything but host CVS and Downloads).
IRC [19:21] <siddfinch> That should clear up one gripe.
IRC [19:21] <jhavard> siddfinch++
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IRC [19:24] <jhavard> when did "refactoring" enter the programming vocabulary?
IRC [19:27] <jhavard> And why does it always seem to mean "rewriting code that sucks"?
IRC [19:38] <martinh> why refactor code that's good?
IRC [19:39] <siddfinch> October 13, 1985 4:30PM. An analyst at HP was thinking of a good saying to get out of a meeting ...
IRC [19:39] <siddfinch> 3 weeks later, he was beat to death by coworkers.
IRC [19:40] <martinh> see. that's the problem with employees today. . .
IRC [19:40] <martinh> it takes 'em 3 weeks to do something that should take 5m.
IRC [19:50] <Dossy> martinh: refactor code that's good? to make it better.
IRC [19:50] <Dossy> sidd: I did say "commercial grade" :-)
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IRC [21:08] <siddfinch> Dossy I has drdater.com and about 20,000 email addresses and have a 10MB connection to the 'net
IRC [21:08] <siddfinch> Umm, not good enough?
IRC [21:11] <siddfinch> I don't host small little companies, all of them are medium sized companies, well all but museatech :)
IRC [21:16] <siddfinch> or I can throw it on an offsite server I have coming out of service in a month
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IRC [21:29] <Dossy> sidd: if you're serious, then lets talk more about it
IRC [21:31] <Dossy> who did the web design for drdater.com ?
IRC [21:50] <siddfinch> they had their own group do most of it ...
IRC [21:51] <siddfinch> Museatech and Collaboraid were responsible for most of the programming work and I think they did some of the web design also.
IRC [21:51] <siddfinch> Martinh would know more about that part.
IRC [21:52] <martinh> i know nothing.
IRC [21:52] <martinh> huh. that doesn't sound as funny when it's not in a german accent.
IRC [22:04] <Dossy> Heh.
IRC [22:04] <Dossy> who is Collaboraid? MuseaTech is Talli, right?
IRC [22:04] * Dossy didn't think Talli was a programmer ...
IRC [22:05] <siddfinch> He isn't, but he contract people through his company
IRC [22:06] <siddfinch> Collaboraid is Lars Pinds company.
IRC [22:06] <siddfinch> Good guy, works out of Demark (if I remember)
IRC [22:11] <siddfinch> In fact I talked to Lars about a university .LRN site he did (about 40k in users). Trying to work out a case study, probably on his AS3.3.1ad13+ssl -> AS4+ssl
IRC [22:16] <Dossy> ah, Lars Pind - OK.
IRC [22:48] <Dossy> funny: http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=aolserver&word2=apache
IRC [22:52] <jhavard> type-1 uuids have one silly issue.
IRC [22:52] <jhavard> They don't sort into time sequence very well.
IRC [22:52] <jhavard> unless the sorter knows about uuid structure.
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