2007/06/12
IRC [00:06] *** mstrchief681 joined the chat.
IRC [00:06] *** mstrchief681 parted the chat.
IRC [05:15] *** IEF parted the chat.
IRC [05:15] *** IEF joined the chat.
IRC [08:56] *** _justQ joined the chat.
IRC [09:36] <Dossy> hi justQ :)
IRC [10:21] <_justQ> Hi Dossy, how are you today? =)
IRC [10:55] <Dossy> okay--busy :)
IRC [11:04] <Dossy> how about you? still trying to do servlets? :)
IRC [11:16] <CIA-25> 03dossy * 10nspostgres/README: Correct backslashes with forward slashes.
IRC [11:18] <CIA-25> 03dossy * 10nspostgres/Makefile:
IRC [11:18] <CIA-25> Updated Makefile to use AOLSERVER variable (NSHOME is deprecated at
IRC [11:18] <CIA-25> this point). Removed -lnsdb, as it builds against AOLserver 4.0.10
IRC [11:18] <CIA-25> without it, for me at least.
IRC [11:33] <_justQ> yes, still trying it and still stucked as well ... :(
IRC [11:39] <Dossy> i'm still not sure why you're trying to do it in AOLserver... ?
IRC [11:40] <_justQ> because the whole application is made in OACS and Aolserver
IRC [11:41] <_justQ> I wrote it before with a java applet but it doesn't really work for me anymore, that's why I'm trying to implement a servlet in aolserver
IRC [11:44] <_justQ> so, I'll keep trying crazy things and do some research of how to implement it and in the meanwhile I will tune and finish other modules based on oacs. But if you know a way of how to do it, I really would appreciate that :-D
IRC [11:51] <Dossy> why not just use Tcl, instead of Java?
IRC [11:52] <Dossy> using Java with AOLserver is like swimming upstream--why?
IRC [12:03] <_justQ> well, the main reason is because jfree provides a lot of java classes already created to plot charts even in 3D and completely interactive, I don't have enough time to write all this java stuff in tcl and it would be much easier just to use this java code instead of rewrite it in tcl.
IRC [12:04] <_justQ> http://www.jfree.org/jfreechart/
IRC [12:08] <_justQ> you can do a lot with jfree even render either html , pdf.. it supports image maps when exporting charts in several formats
IRC [12:30] <Dossy> so, why not just run it in Tomcat or whatever they recommend?
IRC [12:44] <_justQ> well, one of the requirements of the project is to use only aolsrv :( ...
IRC [12:44] <_justQ> http://openacs.org/forums/message-view?message_id=44869
IRC [12:50] <_justQ> I've tried to contact Dan, the creator of nsjava since he could do it.... he used Aolserver, nsjava and JFC but long time ago =(
IRC [12:50] <_justQ> as you can read in that post in openacs forums :)
IRC [12:52] <_justQ> I basically need to do "scripting" of java
IRC [12:52] <_justQ> components from tcl
IRC [12:56] <Dossy> Good luck--there's a lot of pain along that path.
IRC [12:57] <Dossy> I would expect today that using a Flash-based charting widget would be the easier way to go.
IRC [12:57] <Dossy> It fetches its data from any web server via an XML message.
IRC [12:57] <Dossy> ... but, that's just me
IRC [13:01] <_justQ> yes, I will propose using tomcat and doing some kind of proxy, I will also propose your idea =), flash would be much easier but not sure if it will be accepted , anyway, I will keep you posted and thanks for your time answering my questions ;-) !!
IRC [13:06] <Dossy> thanks
IRC [13:06] <Dossy> good luck!
IRC [14:41] *** _justQ parted the chat.
IRC [15:34] *** mstrchief681 joined the chat.
IRC [15:36] *** mstrchief681 parted the chat.
IRC [16:44] <Dossy> So, where is shedi?
IRC [19:56] *** ci_omegadog joined the chat.
IRC [20:03] <Dossy> hi :)
IRC [20:06] <ci_omegadog> hello
IRC [20:07] <ci_omegadog> so Dossy, do you currently run AOLserver?
IRC [20:08] <ci_omegadog> omgosh
IRC [20:09] <ci_omegadog> yeah, i think you run aolserver :)
IRC [20:09] <ci_omegadog> Posted By: dossy
IRC [20:09] <ci_omegadog> Date: 2006-07-11 08:37
IRC [20:09] <ci_omegadog> Summary: AOLserver 4.5.0 released on June 27, 2006
IRC [20:13] <Dossy> :-)
IRC [20:19] <ci_omegadog> so what platforms would you recommend running AOLServer 4.5 on?
IRC [20:20] <Dossy> any where it'll build :)
IRC [20:20] <Dossy> linux, solaris, macosx, win32, you name it.
IRC [20:20] <ci_omegadog> I only see older versions for ubuntu
IRC [20:21] <ci_omegadog> i was hoping to grab a binary
IRC [20:22] <ci_omegadog> i saw where it said there was a win32 binary, but it should be considered very alpha
IRC [20:24] <ci_omegadog> "AOLserver binary builds for many platforms are at http://aolserver.com"
IRC [20:24] <ci_omegadog> but i can't find them
IRC [20:25] <Dossy> yeah--we're falling behind on binary packages
IRC [20:25] <Dossy> Debian's packages are pretty up-to-date.
IRC [20:26] <Dossy> and I'm working on a new Win32 build
IRC [20:26] *** holycow parted the chat.
IRC [20:27] <ci_omegadog> Dossy, no pressure here, but when do you think the Win32 build would be available?
IRC [20:29] <Dossy> you want to test it?
IRC [20:30] <ci_omegadog> very very much so
IRC [20:30] <Dossy> just /msg'ed you the URL :)
IRC [20:30] <Dossy> it's a work-in-progress -- please tell me anything and everything you want about it
IRC [20:30] <ci_omegadog> i will, i will
IRC [20:30] <ci_omegadog> are you going to do one for 4.5?
IRC [20:30] <Dossy> yes
IRC [20:31] <ci_omegadog> are you commonly around here?
IRC [20:31] <Dossy> yup.
IRC [20:31] <ci_omegadog> if so, let me know when its ready and i'll test that one too
IRC [20:31] <ci_omegadog> ^ ^ as if its a favor to you :)
IRC [20:32] <ci_omegadog> i'm a tcl guy- i'm sure snit or stooop would work out of the box, but what about XOtcl? You ever use that?
IRC [20:32] <ci_omegadog> oooh, it even comes with sqlite 3.3! well played sir.
IRC [20:36] <Dossy> great, thanks :)
IRC [20:36] <Dossy> it is a favor to me
IRC [20:36] <Dossy> the more testing, the better
IRC [20:36] <Dossy> I haven't used XOTcl, but I know folks ahve.
IRC [20:37] <Dossy> yeah, I'm going to try to bundle nspostgres, too.
IRC [20:37] <Dossy> and nsoracle, maybe. maybe.
IRC [20:37] <ci_omegadog> re xotcl, great
IRC [20:37] <ci_omegadog> i only use sqlite and mysql, so this is perfect for me
IRC [20:38] <ci_omegadog> its running, nothing at 127.0.0.1 by default, but i haven't read the docs
IRC [20:38] <ci_omegadog> oh, port 8000
IRC [20:38] <ci_omegadog> lemme try that
IRC [20:38] <Dossy> :)
IRC [20:38] <ci_omegadog> bingo!
IRC [20:39] <Dossy> yea, I thought about having it listen on 127.0.0.1:80 ... but figured that may be asking for trouble
IRC [20:39] <ci_omegadog> good thinking
IRC [20:39] <Dossy> you can always edit the config .tcl and change httpport to 80 and restart :)
IRC [20:39] <ci_omegadog> hey, thanks a lot man
IRC [20:39] <ci_omegadog> very exciting
IRC [20:39] <Dossy> sure--thanks for checking it out
IRC [20:39] <Dossy> I'd love to get your feedback, etc.
IRC [20:39] <Dossy> So, how long have you been using Tcl?
IRC [20:40] <ci_omegadog> well, i used extensively about 2 years ago
IRC [20:40] <ci_omegadog> had to use more mainstream stuff for a while
IRC [20:40] <Dossy> yeah.
IRC [20:40] <Dossy> you do much web development?
IRC [20:41] <ci_omegadog> i haven't been doing it
IRC [20:41] <ci_omegadog> but i am about to
IRC [20:41] <Dossy> nice.
IRC [20:42] <Dossy> and you get to choose the tech? :)
IRC [20:42] <ci_omegadog> exactly
IRC [20:42] <Dossy> ooh. nice. where are you working?
IRC [20:42] <ci_omegadog> this is my own project
IRC [20:43] <ci_omegadog> please don't make me tell you that :)
IRC [20:43] <ci_omegadog> so ashamed, so ashamed
IRC [20:45] <Dossy> ashamed, why?
IRC [20:45] <Dossy> there's nothing to be ashamed of.
IRC [20:46] <Dossy> you're in TX?
IRC [20:46] * Dossy chuckles.
IRC [20:46] * Dossy wonders ...
IRC [20:50] <ci_omegadog> i'm at home daddy-duties keep calling
IRC [20:50] <ci_omegadog> sorry for the lag time
IRC [20:50] * Dossy nods--no worries--mine are in bed :) how old are yours, and how many?
IRC [20:51] <ci_omegadog> 2: Jedidiah(Jed) 8, Sarah 6
IRC [20:51] <Dossy> aww :)
IRC [20:51] <ci_omegadog> yours?
IRC [20:51] <Dossy> mine are Charlene (Charlie) 7, and Suzanne (Suzie) 4.
IRC [20:51] <ci_omegadog> nice
IRC [20:52] <Dossy> yup. they were in bed by 8pm tonight.
IRC [20:52] <ci_omegadog> mine have 9 minutes of sweet sweet freedom left
IRC [20:52] <Dossy> lols.
IRC [20:52] *** shemale_maid joined the chat.
IRC [20:52] <Dossy> glad the win32 installer worked for you :) sounds like it was smooth?
IRC [20:52] <ci_omegadog> incredibly
IRC [20:53] <ci_omegadog> not a hick-up
IRC [20:53] <Dossy> awesome.
IRC [20:53] <Dossy> this is the first time I've attempted to create a Win32 installer using NSIS.
IRC [20:53] * ci_omegadog googles
IRC [20:54] <ci_omegadog> it kicks the llamas ass :)
IRC [20:54] <shemale_maid> ) shemale_maid: yeah!!
IRC [20:54] <shemale_maid> (05:53:23 PM) shemale_maid: I have aoslerver up n running
IRC [20:54] <shemale_maid> (05:53:26 PM) shemale_maid: uh
IRC [20:54] <shemale_maid> (05:53:34 PM) shemale_maid: where is the liek tutorial?
IRC [20:54] <Dossy> haha, yeah--by Nullsoft.
IRC [20:54] <Dossy> shemale_maid, can't you pick a normal /nick?
IRC [20:55] <ninja_cat> ok
IRC [20:55] <Dossy> thanks.
IRC [20:55] <Dossy> better :)
IRC [20:55] <ninja_cat> ok
IRC [20:55] <ninja_cat> I even placed a few pages in ~/server/server1/pages
IRC [20:56] <ninja_cat> getting them
IRC [20:56] <Dossy> ?
IRC [20:56] <ninja_cat> and found the philip greenspun book tcl for web nerds
IRC [20:56] <Dossy> ah, cool
IRC [20:56] <ninja_cat> but how do I learn to tune aolserver itself?
IRC [20:56] <Dossy> don't worry about tuning until you have an actual application.
IRC [20:56] <ninja_cat> hm
IRC [20:56] <ninja_cat> ok
IRC [20:56] <Dossy> there's this whole cart-and-horse issue.
IRC [20:56] <ninja_cat> heh
IRC [20:56] <ninja_cat> Im the worst when it comes to that
IRC [20:57] <ci_omegadog> "premature optimization is the root of all evil"
IRC [20:58] * Dossy nods
IRC [20:58] <Dossy> sqrt(-1) was the root of all evil ...
IRC [20:58] <ninja_cat> what is premature optimization?
IRC [20:58] <Dossy> architectural dysfunction. try viagra.
IRC [20:59] <ci_omegadog> i
IRC [20:59] <ninja_cat> no women are evil, women = time + money, so women = money^2, and money is root of all evil, so thus women = (root fo all evil)^2, or women = evil!!!
IRC [21:00] <ci_omegadog> its a quote i tell myself all the time
IRC [21:00] <ci_omegadog> when i'm trying to be too clever
IRC [21:00] <ninja_cat> 2 ways to win argument with a woman; neither work
IRC [21:00] <ci_omegadog> but of course, who am i fooling
IRC [21:00] <ci_omegadog> i could just write some cgi scripts
IRC [21:00] <ninja_cat> what do you tell a woman with 2 black eyes?
IRC [21:00] <ninja_cat> nothing, you told twice already
IRC [21:00] <ninja_cat> doh!
IRC [21:01] <ninja_cat> ok
IRC [21:01] <ninja_cat> premature optimizaton
IRC [21:01] <ci_omegadog> but instead i 'm going to use AOLServer
IRC [21:01] <ninja_cat> optimizing something when I dont even have an app
IRC [21:01] <ninja_cat> I invented my own saying: optimizing anthills
IRC [21:01] <ninja_cat> when people fritter over small crap that is emaningless
IRC [21:01] <Dossy> ci_omegadog: well, if you do, I thank you :)
IRC [21:02] <ninja_cat> when basic changes elsewhere would help a lot more
IRC [21:02] <ci_omegadog> oh i am
IRC [21:02] <ninja_cat> cgi is so passe
IRC [21:02] <ninja_cat> passe'
IRC [21:02] <ci_omegadog> i mean, i was just settling in to work on my new pet project
IRC [21:02] <ci_omegadog> and i was like, this is going to be a drag
IRC [21:03] <ci_omegadog> i don't hate php since 5 came out
IRC [21:03] <ninja_cat> wana see the coolest gif Ive seen in a while?
IRC [21:03] <ninja_cat> http://images.corvetteforum.com/images/smilies/cheers2.gif
IRC [21:03] <ci_omegadog> :)
IRC [21:04] <ci_omegadog> but i love tcl
IRC [21:04] <ci_omegadog> just freakin' love it
IRC [21:04] <ci_omegadog> i think in tcl
IRC [21:04] <Dossy> awesome :)
IRC [21:04] <Dossy> and yeah, if you get the hang of AOLserver, you'll never want to go back. :)
IRC [21:04] <ci_omegadog> no doubt
IRC [21:04] <ci_omegadog> so i started looking at my options
IRC [21:05] <ci_omegadog> and then a little lightbulb went off- how about aol server
IRC [21:05] <ci_omegadog> i mean really Dossy
IRC [21:05] <ci_omegadog> and i could be wrong here
IRC [21:05] <ci_omegadog> but i think theres going to be a backlash against rails
IRC [21:05] <ci_omegadog> its already starting
IRC [21:05] <Dossy> not surprising.
IRC [21:06] <Dossy> Rails is great for small intranet apps.
IRC [21:06] <ci_omegadog> its fine, it really is
IRC [21:06] <ci_omegadog> there are some really cool things about it
IRC [21:06] <Dossy> If I need to throw together a quick app with a few forms that talks to a database for an intranet app with less than 1,000 users ... Rails makes perfect sense.
IRC [21:07] <ci_omegadog> its not such a competitive advantage with all the new frameworks that are available to clone rails
IRC [21:07] <ci_omegadog> but if you dig ruby
IRC [21:08] <ci_omegadog> you could also use merb and get it done even faster
IRC [21:08] <ninja_cat> merb?
IRC [21:09] <ninja_cat> wtf is that
IRC [21:09] <Dossy> brb, smoke.
IRC [21:09] <ci_omegadog> http://brainspl.at/articles/2006/10/18/merb-is-useable-and-a-gem
IRC [21:09] <ninja_cat> ok Dossey you seem to be a regular, how should someone new to programming attack the task of learning to program, leanring tcl, then learning aolserver?
IRC [21:15] <Dossy> uh. going to school is an easy path.
IRC [21:15] <ci_omegadog> well, the great thing about tcl is that it has the least "cognitive load" of any language i've ever seen
IRC [21:15] <ci_omegadog> i can teach tcl to my mom in 10 minutes
IRC [21:15] * Dossy nods
IRC [21:16] <ci_omegadog> ninja_cat: give me a sec, i'll give you some links
IRC [21:16] <ci_omegadog> but i am interested in what AOLserver resources you would recommend
IRC [21:17] <ninja_cat> learning
IRC [21:17] <ninja_cat> lol
IRC [21:17] <ninja_cat> I am not a great typist
IRC [21:17] <ninja_cat> :(
IRC [21:18] <ninja_cat> hmm wiki chew chew
IRC [21:18] <ci_omegadog> http://www.tcl.tk/man/tcl8.5/tutorial/tcltutorial.html
IRC [21:19] <ci_omegadog> also, all the tcl books are like $2 on amazon
IRC [21:19] <ci_omegadog> Dossy: so what resources for learning AOLServer would you recommend?
IRC [21:19] <ninja_cat> I had the brent welsh one
IRC [21:19] <ninja_cat> ZZZ
IRC [21:19] <ninja_cat> I prefer the phil greenspun one so far
IRC [21:20] <ninja_cat> although he seesm to love lisp
IRC [21:20] <ninja_cat> 8.5?
IRC [21:20] <ninja_cat> is 8.5 stable?
IRC [21:20] <ninja_cat> !
IRC [21:20] <ci_omegadog> its a good tutorial
IRC [21:20] <ci_omegadog> i don't think so
IRC [21:20] <ci_omegadog> i can't remember anything in it that isn't applicable to 8.4
IRC [21:20] <ci_omegadog> or freakin 7.3
IRC [21:21] <ci_omegadog> tcl is tcl is tcl, pretty much
IRC [21:21] <ci_omegadog> the grammar has never changed
IRC [21:22] <ci_omegadog> thngs that have been added are things like calendar, reg exp, starkits
IRC [21:24] <ninja_cat> hm
IRC [21:25] <ninja_cat> tcl filesystems seems interesting too
IRC [21:25] <ninja_cat> wow
IRC [21:25] <ninja_cat> all free
IRC [21:28] <ci_omegadog> http://panoptic.com/wiki/aolserver/Tutorials
IRC [21:28] <ci_omegadog> lol
IRC [21:29] <ci_omegadog> panopticon
IRC [21:29] <ci_omegadog> who was that
IRC [21:29] <ci_omegadog> ?
IRC [21:29] <ci_omegadog> french philosopher
IRC [21:29] <ninja_cat> ever read john twelve hawks?
IRC [21:29] <ninja_cat> his 2nd novel is coming soon
IRC [21:29] <ninja_cat> very good
IRC [21:30] <ninja_cat> Dossy why u smoke? bad 4 u!
IRC [21:30] <ci_omegadog> no, i almost never read fiction anymore
IRC [21:30] <ninja_cat> much of it is crap but this I read in 2 days
IRC [21:31] <ninja_cat> http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw/104-9270511-5857543?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=twelve+hawks&Go.x=0&Go.y=0
IRC [21:31] <ninja_cat> the traveller
IRC [21:31] <ninja_cat> heh
IRC [21:33] *** ninja_cat parted the chat.
IRC [21:51] <ci_omegadog> ...
IRC [21:51] <Dossy> :)
IRC [21:51] <ci_omegadog> Dossy: why were you interviewed about twitter?
IRC [21:51] <ci_omegadog> like, why you?
IRC [21:51] * Dossy shrugs--because I used it?
IRC [21:52] <ci_omegadog> oic
IRC [21:52] <Dossy> Not sure, really.
IRC [21:52] <ci_omegadog> see, that's very interesting to me
IRC [21:52] <ci_omegadog> if twitter was written on top of AOLServer with tcl- it wouldn't be having horrible scalibility issues now
IRC [21:52] <ci_omegadog> i was going to bring up twitter
IRC [21:53] <ci_omegadog> to see what you think
IRC [21:53] <ci_omegadog> that's hysterical
IRC [21:53] <Dossy> Scalability isn't necessarily about the technology stack as it is design and implementation details.
IRC [21:54] <ci_omegadog> true- but rails suffers from scalability issues "out of the box"
IRC [21:54] <Dossy> Well, sure.
IRC [21:55] <ci_omegadog> now, not everything needs to be massively scalable
IRC [21:55] <ci_omegadog> on the level of, oh say, AOL
IRC [21:57] <Dossy> sure.
IRC [21:57] <ci_omegadog> you're too well balanced
IRC [21:57] <Dossy> but, if your long-term goal is to build such a service (i.e., Twitter, etc.) then it's foolish not to plan for it.
IRC [21:57] <ci_omegadog> if i can't slam rails in THE AOLSERVER irc channel, i just give up
IRC [21:57] <ci_omegadog> :)
IRC [21:58] <Dossy> ?
IRC [21:58] <ci_omegadog> i'm just saying, you have a very balanced view about things
IRC [21:58] <Dossy> Uh, thanks. :-)
IRC [21:59] <Dossy> I guess I've worked with so many different technology stacks--there's no point in criticizing any of them in general.
IRC [21:59] <Dossy> Pain is rightfully felt when you apply the wrong solution to a problem. It's a self-correcting effect.
IRC [22:00] <ci_omegadog> deep
IRC [22:00] <ci_omegadog> seriously
IRC [22:37] <ci_omegadog> ...
IRC [22:37] <ci_omegadog> one last thing before i take off
IRC [22:38] <ci_omegadog> what config file is the server using now
IRC [22:38] <ci_omegadog> i see sample-config.tcl, but no config.tcl
IRC [22:39] <ci_omegadog> "the server" meaning, the one you sent me
IRC [22:39] <ci_omegadog> :)
IRC [22:42] <Dossy> yeah, sample-config.tcl
IRC [22:42] <Dossy> that's what it's using
IRC [22:42] <Dossy> you can make a copy of it and customize it
IRC [22:43] <Dossy> start the server w/ aolserver.bat